SE23 - The great divide.

Not content with making sure people know there are two (apparently) distinctly different parts to the postcode that is SE23, a movement has now started to get part of the postcode, Honor Oak Park of course, re-zoned by TfL as Zone 2.

Cheaper fares, yaaaayyy!!
That is all it is about, honest. Nothing to do with the "oh I live in Zone 2" status statement, or drawing yet another line between "them and us". I have long whined on about the divide in SE23, and how important or over played it really is, however it seems that some will not be content until they make it into a whole new place. Maybe it should get its own postcode HOP1 or something? How about that?

While I admire the desire to get changes which benefit the many, I sometimes think the motives, and conversations they spawn are a little more telling.
For the residents of HOP, who bought their houses in Zone 3 pricing, result. A change of zone is sure to have an impact of sorts on the house prices. For those renting, well that is a different matter, they can no doubt expect their rent to rise next time their contract is up.
Parking, because of the close knit of side streets, with quite a few blocked roads, which HOP is made up of, parking is already a bit of a chore. Regularly discussed on local forums, parking outsides ones house is a bonus not a certainty. With some (to the annoyance of others) pave their gardens to get off street parking.
To imagine that other commuters will not be attracted to the area is nothing less than ignorant. For those between Forest Hill and HOP stations, the obvious choice would be to head towards HOP for the preferential travel pricing. Not to mention those who drive in from other areas and park near FH station. The obvious choice would be to head nearer HOP and travel to and from there.

Should HOP get re-zoned, how long before there is uproar and calls for residential parking zones to be extended through the streets?

Another unconsidered side effect is local businesses. many businesses get a fair bit of trade from commuters as they pass the shops on their way to and from work. Dartmouth Road is booming, London Road is getting a Costa, it's all going so well. Perry Vale shops also get a bit of passing trade from that end of the area.
Now take away all those people who could do their foot commute to HOP instead, or indeed park closer to HOP and walk through the back streets. All that passing trade for FH, gone.

The arguments being made about where is the centre of London, how randomly is was chosen, etc seems to ramble on a bit, but the quote below sheds a little light on the matter.

The centre of London is often given as the Charles I statue south of Trafalgar Square. It's a handy convention for measuring distances to and from London. But where is the geometric centre?

Back in 2010, we did a little experiment. We pasted a map of Greater London onto cardboard, cut out the map, and then tried to balance it on a pin-head. The balance point, also known as the centre of gravity, can be said to be the geometric centre of London. Turns out that Lambeth North tube station is the centre of the city. 

https://londonist.com/2014/04/where-is-the-centre-of-london-an-update

Interesting eh. It isn't a dart thrown at a dart board, or some cunning person from Forest Hill who wanted to persecute those who he envied as they lived in the modern Utopia known as Honor Oak Park. It was done eons ago, when mapping London's road networks etc was done, and those signs started to appear with how far it was to London. A central point was decided long before TfL came into existence.

Just before I wrap up this latest whine, I thought I would refer back once again to The Londonist. You see this whole re-zoning thing has been done before, the conversations had, and the points made. Read all about it in the comments section of this old post. It also has a somewhat more geographically accurate map of London and the zones too.
https://londonist.com/2014/01/mapped-londons-oyster-zone-boundaries


Til next time, I will carry on observing the threads of discussions on the internet, and watch with amazement as yet another thing which won't really impact me unfolds, and is decided. Something some other people who are not local enough, or involved should maybe consider doing too.  #JustSayin

Dear SE23.... Part 2.

So the other day, I seem to have upset some people by suggesting that the attitudes of people in the area were changing, and in my opinion, for the worse.
Comments about my last blog suggested my words were poison, I was caught in tribalism, and that I was unwilling to accept new people, businesses and buildings in the area.

Well, that was already a slight misrepresentation of what I had actually said. I have never said change is bad. I have however said that moving to an area which doesn't have all the boxes ticked, and them stomping your feet that they are not ticked, is a little weak, to say the least.

What I missed out from the initial blog was the outcry of disappointment when new businesses, not to the liking of some, make a proposal to open. There is a very clear message in some peoples comments that a similar business of a slightly more affluent nature would be welcomed. However as it is not the business they were hoping for, it can go to hell.

Example being the Aldi proposal in Bell Green. Opposed by some for genuine reasons, but for others, it just wasn't the retailer they wanted, so it should be opposed and blocked by any means necessary.

Today, a proposal has come to light which will see the redevelopment of a local business, and change it into a similar business, with a few storeys added to the height of the new building, and the inclusion of a 66 room hotel. God forbid !

Seeing some of the reactions, I get it. Concerns of daylight, being overlooked, and other such concerns. All understandable. However, once again, the air of snobbery and NIMBY raises it's ugly head, and the protests begin. Throwing up all sorts of reasons to oppose the proposal, some almost laughable in fact.

I don't live locally enough to the proposed site to really have a genuine opinion on it, not one which has any bearing on the matter. However, my general feeling towards it are much the same as the similar proposal nearby which is also a hotel and retail building, and that is, change is good.

Going back to my blog, and the comments made on it, this is exactly why the comments were "incorrect" so to speak. These are both pretty big changes to the area local to my house. They are no doubt going to have a number of impacts on the local roads, increased population of the area etc. I have no issues with that at all. However I bet that some of the people who said I was tribalised in my ways, are the same people who would object to these proposals.

Seeing two hotel companies willing to invest large sums into new businesses in the area is surely a good thing. Just because preferred retailers are not currently interested in moving into the area, surely seeing other businesses making their move is a positive for the area? Surely it shows that certain sectors feel there is room for growth, so the area has potential for now and the future. Is this not the exact thing I was told I was against, that I am supporting openly here?

So confusing!

So to clarify... I am all for change, I am all for the bettering of the area. More businesses, more jobs, more homes.. What I am against are people who  pick and choose based on certain criteria, and go out of their way to be obstructive, purely because its not the business they wanted. Independent pizza shops pop up all over the place, hurrah, Domino's planned. DOWN WITH DOMINO'S !!
New supermarket planned, is it M&S or Waitrose? No? SAY NO TO NEW SUPERMARKET!

Does it make more sense now. You either support development and growth, or you don't. If you are going to be vocal about your selective mindset, expect to be called out on it.
SE23 has celebrated independent coffee shops, and that is something to be proud of for sure. So why is a Costa such a bad thing? More choice for those who prefer the chain. NO! May those people be damned for their poor taste in coffee, you should drink REAL coffee!!

There are so many examples of this selective NIMBYism. Going back to hotels.. We want SE23 to grown, we want it to be more affluent, have better shopping options, venues for entertaining, and fine dining etc. However we don't want hotels. Hotels which bring more people to the area, increasing footfall, increasing demands on local businesses, and making the area somewhat more desirable to the exact businesses which would turn a NIMBY to a YIMBY in a heartbeat.
As I was told, see the bigger picture.

With the Overground now in SE23, things are changing for sure, after all it was after the announcement of it coming to the area that the development of some new buildings started, the house prices rose, and the area became "more desirable". With the first wave of growth and development done and settled, other changes locally and to the transport infrastructure once again put SE23 on the map. However this time (since the explosion of social media) the voices of opposition are loud.

Time will tell what comes next for the area, but again, to be clear, I welcome the changes. When the house next to mine was demolished, and changed from being a single family dwelling to SEVEN flats, I gulped and just carried on. When the same thing happened two doors further down, my reaction was the same. Local parking became a pain in the arse, the mannerisms of the new residents were very different to those of days gone by. Bins all over the place, bad parking, parties etc. Some of which is easy to suck it up, other bits just make you wish people would be a little respectful and try and include themselves in the neighbourhood. Alas, not so.

Dear SE23...

I have lived in you for 45 years, over 3/4 of my life now, and we have seen some great times together. Your streets have taught me many life lessons, as well as burned me at times (my own stupid fault). You are my home, the place I miss when I am away, and the views of your rooftops, especially the church that peeks out at the top of my road, are always a welcome sight.

I have lived elsewhere, I have visited many places, but have always felt most comfortable right back within your streets.

My childhood was spent exploring the local roads. Finding all those alleyways, and cul-de-sacs hidden away from the view of every day life. Absolute gems of architecture, which I have grown to respect with age, and of course the odd blot on the landscape.

From a young child, to a man now in his 40's, you have shown me the values of a home, rather than a place to live, and I hope as the years go by, we will continue to have a wonderful relationship.

But..... SE23, there is a problem. It's not me, it's not you...... IT'S THEM !!!
Who the hell are these entitled arseholes who have moved in? When did SE23 become full of pompous idiots who demand all their demands are met. We want this shop, we don't like this company, who are these people who have parties, it's too light, dark, grey, green..... Please, make them go away!

We were happy for so long. All the people who have spent their lives here with us, growing with the area, seeing businesses come and go. The Swiss Cottage, Woolworths, The Golden Griddle, the old petrol station on Waldram Park Road.... So many memories of days gone by, but all replaced by modern day businesses or building, most of which I welcome. Obviously, nothing is perfect, but as a whole, I love you SE23.

So back to those people. They are ruining what we have. The spillover from other local areas, reluctant to say they simply could not afford to live elsewhere, they tell us they are part of the "gentrification" of the area. The new breed, the start of a movement to bring the area up to date, and with the times.
For starters, some of these people need to understand what gentrification actually is. It is not modernisation, or a slight change in social wealth in an area. It is a bricks up redesign on an area for social development, and pushing out the existing people.
Let's get one thing straight here, we (the natives of the area) ain't going nowhere. Don't like us, don't like our ways? Simple, don't move here.

Recent years have seen people move to this lovely area, and start smear campaigns about loved locals, made snide comments to damage people and businesses which simply don't fit into their perfect little worlds, and started some sort of movement to turn the area into something it quite simply is not.
SE23, you are beautiful, filled with green spaces, tree lined streets, wide roads, and many lovely people and businesses, but a village, no! Quaint, nope! As for prime for gentrification.... Fuck right off!
I know you know I want what is best for you, I think I have gotten to know you pretty well over the years. So please, sell yourself more to the mainstream, lets see those building projects, the NIMBY arseholes are all crying about, happen. Bring on the chain stores like Costa to give the local independents a kick in the pants where needed. Domino's can't come soon enough, and lets see the good people of SE23 rise up and claim back what is theirs.

No more of this "I want it this way" bullshit. Talk of blocking cycle paths with concrete blocks, just in case mopeds ride through fire gates.... WTF !! What sort of nonsense is this? Who are these people who are moving in to this area? This is not the mindset of South London, this is people who think they live in South Kensington. Get a grip people!!

Now I love people, I love diversity, and I want this to work, I really do SE23. We can all live together in perfect harmony I am sure. We just need to be a bit more picky about some of the people moving in, and let them know where exactly they are moving in to. Streets are no uniquely lined with independent shops, simply because, well..... you are a town, not a village! Lidl and Aldi are popular because, well.... Most people shop with their budgets in mind, and don't let their precious egos get in the way. Good quality food, at affordable prices. Not the same food at over inflated prices, with premium price tags attached.

I think you are worthy of the finest businesses which suit the needs of our area, I really do. However I also know you don't take it to heart when some brands choose not to open branches in your neighbourhood. Usually based on the demographic of the area, and the projected revenues. I think the only people with a problem with this are those who, just for a moment, realise they are not living in the suburban utopia they like to think they are. A momentary reality check, you live in South London, get over yourself you pompous idiot.

SE23, if it is OK with you, I want to renew our vows to one another, just as long as you promise this is just a glitch, and that the madness will end one day. Sure, lets move up the ranks of most desirable places to live, let's celebrate the wonderful area that you really are, but don't let them bully you into over stretching yourself. You are perfect just the way you are.


As a side note... Dear people of the area, if you have lived here over 10-15 years, I am sure you appreciate the area for all it has to offer. There are some great tight knit communities around the area, speaking from personal experience, I know in times of need my neighbours have my back, and we are as one.
If you have moved in over recent years, and are one of these who chooses not to get to know any of your neighbours, or take an immediate dislike to them, well, quite frankly, that is your problem. Please don't move to an area which is loaded with history, family legacies, and so much more, and immediately think that things should be done differently now that you have moved in.

It doesn't work like that, and if you don't like it, do one! Do your research, find out about an area, and neighbourhood, rather than moving in and suddenly expecting to become the head of the house. If you demand certain businesses, don't like the wildlife in an area broken into two districts, one with FOREST in the name and the other with PARK in it, don't move to it!

I am sick and tired of hearing the whining of the primadonnas, complaining that bin men are noisy, mopeds use the streets, their flat white is too milky, or that a frickin pizza place is daring to open locally to them! Get a grip of yourselves, or STFU, please!!

I could go on for ages about this, but can actually feel myself turning into a whining little NIMBY, so am going to go to the spa and have a green tea and meditate for a while....

Seriously though. If you are just moving in, or moved in recently, welcome to the area. Please take some time to get to know your neighbours, hell, just do a leaflet drop with some contact details, and a hi, you don't have to buy everyone hampers, or invite them over for canapes, (thats no how we do things around here!). SE23 is a fantastic area to live. Perfect, no, but it sure as hell doesn't need a Laurence Llewelyn Bowen   make over.... Maybe a little DIY SOS at best :)

I guess it is worth adding, for fairness and balance. There is nothing wrong with hoping for improvements to an area when you move in. Hell, there is no such place as the perfect area. I have no issue with that whatsoever. Nor do I have a problem with new people moving in. It's a free country, and I don't blame you for wanting to move into this lovely area.
The people I speak of a a tiny but very vocal minority, much like those who read this entry in its original form, and took immediate offence, and told me I was wrong, and my words were poison. See, THAT is the problem right there.... Not just an opinion, FACT, I was wrong.

Every dog has its day...

Everything in life has a finite time span for being relevant. And when the day comes when it is no longer king of the hill there are two ways to go. Gracefully, or kicking and screaming.

For me, going out gracefully, and being remembered for your greatness and service is far more appealing that throwing tantrums and having to be removed by security. Remembered only for that last childish outburst.

Of course, the reasons for falling from the top are plentiful, so I suppose your actions are sometimes determined by what happened to bring it all about.

Imagine, spinning plates, putting on an amazing show and gathering a crowd to watch your amazing show. As the crowds gather, and the spotlight gets brighter, you lose concentration on the plates.
As the first one hits the floor, you turn in panic to react to the situation, frantically running back and forth trying to keep things going. One by one, they drop and smash, until finally you have managed to get 10% of them safely spinning again.
Turning back to your adorning crowd, unsurprisingly most are gone!

Looking to where they have gone, you see them across the way at a different attraction. Not plate spinning, but juggling. So you have two choices, keep your plates spinning, and protect what you have left. Keep the remaining audience happy. Or take your plates down, give up on your show, and start throwing them at the juggler and its audience, hoping to take them down as well as yourself. The old "if I can't have it, you can't have it" play.

Usually if you go with the latter, you tend to be remembered for your last actions, and not the shows before that.

By now you are probably wondering what the hell I am talking about, so let's cut the bullshit, and get to the crux of the matter.

When a local forum runs its course, and stops adapting to the changing population of the area it covers, and allows political and personal beliefs to drive how it is run, it can start to lose its following.  Failure or refusal to allow certain topics or opinions to be aired can also lead to a very closed environment, and become unattractive to not only the current local residents and users, but also to the every growing new population.

So another one pops up, fresh and open minded. It starts to attract your current audience, and gathers pace rapidly. The two ways to approach it are a/ keep going, its no threat, its a different approach, or b/ go to war and throw everything you have at it, including your dignity.

Having been at the forefront of forums, from back in early 2000 until about 2006 running a very popular online community. Lots of people and opinions. Lots of random conversations turning into life changing matters. Friendships forged, leading to marriage and the birth of children. I think it's fair to say that it was quite challenging. But with the birth of Facebook, and the changing times, the day came when it was done. Allowing that to happen progressively, and folding at the right time meant I retained all the friendships I had made, and the whole venture is remembered fondly.

In this case, the local community is not following this model, and instead of being sensible about it, and rolling with things, the owner has decided war is the only way.
Now, let me be honest here. As the plates started falling, the right thing to do is salvage what you can, then start putting plates back on poles, newer more colourful ones, and attract the crowd back. If you want to fight hard, go for it, but show you have something worth fighting for. Don't start throwing plate fragments, hitting your old audience with them, and hope they will come back to see the same old show again.

Sadly, this is not the approach taken, and rather than going with a two pronged approach of promotion and revamping, a route of "destroy the other forum" has been taken.
Reporting of advertising to local authorities, sock puppet accounts on the new forum, trying to stir things up, only to run away and ask for it all to be removed again, constant changing of topic names on the old forum to mimic the new one, buying Google Adwords relating to the new one and pointing them at your own forum, buying domain names again hoping to snare people looking for the other one.
As someone recently said, "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" , and it IS ! So very true.

Sadly it doesn't end with imitation, and goes further to manipulation. Messing around with Wikipedia editing entries in your favour, deleting entries by the new forum, rewording entries to your own advantage. Lets get something straight, Wikipedia is NOT a playground, or somewhere childish battles should be fought. Now it is starting to get pathetic, and borderline personal.

So, Steve....
Where does all this end?
I know there is a strong revenue stream for you from your forum, somehow managing to bamboozle your advertisers into believing that the 40,000 visitors a month (85-90% of which are search bots I presume) and the 6,000 members (of which about 15 still use the forum, and 1,500 are probably sock puppet accounts of your own and others) somehow generate value for money. Surely anyone with any dignity and common sense can see that the interaction on the forum has dropped away to a borderline sustainable level now. But I suppose as long as you can keep prying money out of their hands, you feel like it is a worthwhile venture to keep going.

Sadly, it seems, that actually giving a toss about the local community and their needs is the bottom of the importance list now, if even still on it at all. If it were of any interest, I am sure the forum would have been upgraded over time, and offered more to its user than admin filtered PM's, personal vendettas with users occasionally blocking their account as you don't like what they said, and disappearing posts because they don't interest you, you don't agree with them, or simply don't like the person who posted it.... Without ever meeting them, that's the hilarious part.

When the new forum popped up, it was launched with the intention of filling a gap in the online resources of the local community. A friendly and social approach to get people working together with others in their community, and a fresh spin on an old idea. Getting people out from behind their screens, being real people not just a user name, and creating a happy and self supporting community for the SE23 area.
Not a threat, not a take-down, not a local coup, just something new. Plenty of space for both to co-exist, with the option along the way to work together or benefit from the growth.

What we have ended up with instead is a full on pissing contest. The old vs the new. Offended somehow that someone else would dare to offer the local community (in which they live) a breath of fresh air, and some new options. It is an evolving world where options are obligatory, and people expect to be giving a choice. So to somehow take offence that this would happen is a little small minded.
Surely if you felt that you had something real to offer SE23, you would make an honest and open stand. Come out from behind the "Admin" moniker , speak openly, have your say and show you care. Stand up for the cause you apparently believe in so much.
Rather than hiding behind fake forum accounts, sabotaging online references, and trying to trick people onto your forum by using pseudonyms similar to the new forum.  All I see so far are cowardly sucker punches in the dark, which consist of damaging the name of an upstart, rather than justifying the continued use and following of what is quite frankly an old, tired forum which exists on fitting in with the online clique.

I hope that the stupid behaviour ends soon, and the people of SE23 can make a good, honest, well educated decision of which forum is right for them, and maybe even use both.

On a serious note, do things openly and in your own name. If you truly believe you are fighting for a good honest cause, do it with dignity, and show the community you are trying to convince you care, that you really do!
As for the advertisers...

PLEASE NOTE..
These are the sole opinions and comments of Michael Snasdell (real name, feel free to Google me) and not those of any other forum for the SE23 area, or anywhere else.
Any name calling is driven by my own opinions and interactions (online) with Steve Shaw and se23(dot)com