Have you parked in Brighton recently?

For the first time in a while, a serious entry.

Have you parked at a pay and display machine using the Pay By Phone app, in Brighton since 1/11/16 ? If so, please read on and share. You MAY have been seriously over charged!

Before travelling to Brighton last week I looked up the parking fees, so I knew what to expect.
On Tuesday I parked on Madeira Drive for 4 hours, paying via the Pay By Phone app as recommended to make it swift and simple. I was charged £11 (plus 40p booking fee). And thought nothing more of it.

Parking again on Friday, and knowing the expected price was £7.20 (plus booking fee), but to my alarm I was charged £16.40 (inc booking fee), When my friend arrived I warned him that I had paid more than we were expecting. As he had not yet set the app up, he used the meter, and was charged, yup, £7.20.

So it turns out, the tariffs which changed for Brighton and Hove on the 1st Nov, have NOT been updated via the app. As a result of this, I have been over charged by £15.60. Have you been over charged too?

I am currently trying to get a response from B&H Parking re this. On Twitter I was informed that an error had been found and rectified on the system. This unfortunately does not mean I get an automatic refund.

So, I am writing this, and making it known, so anyone else who has parked in one of B&H's zones, and paid by app, or even maybe ANY parking area controlled by Pay By Phone , it is possible that you may have been over charged. So I would recommend you check your receipt against the online published parking tariff for where you parked, just in case.

I am £15 out of pocket, and that's just one car. How many more paid by app over the past 10 days, and how much has been taken? Does the money get passed on to B&H, or does Pay By Phone just pass on the correct charge? So many questions right now.



UPDATE

After being contacted by Pay By Phone via Twitter, I was initially told by them that there was no issue with the rates at the locations.
"The rates are correct at both Madeira Drive locations and have been correct since the seasonal change on 1st November."

However after an investigation, and a very detailed explaination of what had happened, they replied again with the following.

through my investigations, i have found that we have two locations that cover Madeira drive (85325 & 85327). It appears that 85325 was amended correctly ready for the change on 1st November. However, 85327 was incorrectly left on the summer rates until we were notified by B&H Council of this error on Friday morning (pre-9am) when it was then changed to the winter tariffs.

i have therefore arranged for both of your sessions to be partially refunded so £8.80 and £6.80 have been refunded back to you today. we have also pulled off a list of all transactions which went through at the Summer rate from 1/11-10/11 and are arranging for the over payments to be refunded via our finance team. we will ensure each customer affected receives an sms to advise them of this error.

Thank you to Pay By Phone for their openness and honesty on this matter. I hope this is a very isolated incident, and checks are made to ensure this has not occurred elsewhere.

Thank you very much to Bromley Parking

I like to consider myself fair (other of course don't but hey..) So when something I have been moaning about is resolved, its only fair to say so, and not make it look like the 'target' of the other blog entries is still in my bad books.

So a while back I contacted Bromley asking what the outcome of the PCN appeal was, and received back a very short and somewhat informal reply saying what I read as 'oh drop it will you'.

Needless to say my response was fast and forthcoming, and as a result to tweeting the link to the blog entry, received some attention.

Today I received a very polite and detailed response from Bromley Parking, in which they highlighted the vague response initially given, and this time put a bit more meat on the bones as to why the decision had been made to overturn the PCN.
The reason given originally was 'clerical error', however I wanted to know exactly what that meant. To be more precise, the original response to my first appeal pointed out there were signs warning of the CPZ on London Road, on the way into Bromley, where in fact there were not.
As this had been stated in the reason to refuse the appeal, it was deemed (and I agree) an incorrect statement, therefore the PCN was cancelled.

SO, I can officially after just under a year, draw a line under the matter.
Lessons learned are Bromley has a vaguely signed CPZ, so use a car park at all times, and never assume a single yellow is safe.
Also, Bromley appears to have no plans to increase the signage for the said CPZ, so again, use a proper car park to be safe.

I would like to thank Bromley Parking for taking the time to look exhaustively into this matter, and truly appreciate the time being taken to read the blog, consider my point made re the sign location, and get back to me with a polite, detailed response.
I would also like to apologise openly for publishing the names of the parking officers and other staff involved in this whole affair without consulting them or seeking their permission. I will of course edit these out.

FINALLY... an answer from Bromley Parking

Albeit a little blunt, but the outcome is OK I guess.

See below..

<parking@bromley.gov.uk>	4:19 PM (20 minutes ago)

This Penalty Charge Notice was cancelled on February 11^th 2014 and I give below a copy of our waive letter, correctly addressed.

	Our Ref: BY04003116
Michael Snasdell Forest Hill London
	11/02/2014
Dear Sir Penalty Charge Notice: BY04003116 Date Issued: 16/11/2013 Place Issued: ELMFIELD ROAD, BROMLEY Vehicle Registration: T103DBM Served under the Traffic Management Act 2004

Thank you for writing to us.

We have reviewed the Penalty Charge Notice as part of our standard procedures and whilst the penalty was correctly issued, we have withdrawn it owing to an administration error.

Yours sincerely

Parking Support Officer

Bromley clearly have no intention of addressing their CPZ signage, and wanted to be a short on the matter as possible.
I am left wondering what exactly the 'administration error' which caused the cancellation of the ticket was. They had 4 months left to respond to the matter and reject it, the information is STILL online to see now, so the pictures are still there, the ticket is still avaiable also with information on it.

Is this Bromley's way of saying 'we agree' without actually admitting wrong doing? I will be interested to see if any signage around the area has changed, or indeed changes. But with the run up to Christmas soon upon us, im sure they will make up for this ticket tenfold! So if you DO get a ticket and think it is unfair, don't be afraid to appeal, its your right!

Also very strange how the follow up ticket reminder, first appeal decision, and notice to keeper all arrived fine, yet this 'correctly addressed' letter has never been seen. Nor have any emails I have sent prior to this one ever been answered.

All in all Bromley, you have very poor standards when it comes to dealing with members of the public, who you have initiated contact with, regardless of its form. Its very sad that such a seemingly prestigeous local authority, deal with matters where people dare to question you in such a short, rude, and obnoxious manner.

I would reply to the email asking what the error was, but im sure I would be told it was a private matter and cannot be divulged.

Thanks anyway for finally getting back to me and cancelling the ticket, we both know it was the right thing to do.

Time to contact Bromley Parking again!

Nearly a year on, I thought I would take one more crack at getting a response from Bromley about their parking ticket and CPZ..

This has been sent to their main complaints department.

Dear Sir/ Madam,

In November of 2013 I received a PCN from one of your wardens (ref above) which I chose to challenge on the grounds of poor signage in reference to the CPZ the offence was said to have taken place in.
I received a formal response regarding my appeal, which rejected it, and gave me my options.
On receiving my notice to keeper I decided to again appeal on the same grounds.
Since this time I have not heard a word from Bromley on the matter.

My assumption, based on this being a year ago almost now, is that the ticket has been cancelled, and the appeal was successful. Some digging on the internet offered me this advice.
After an appeal against Notice to Owner relating to PCN issued by civil enforcement officer - the council must serve you with a response either accepting or rejecting your appeal (Notice of Rejection) no later than 56 days commencing with the date they received your appeal. If they do not the PCN must be cancelled.

While I feel I know the outcome of this matter, some official confirmation of this would be appreciated.

Requested action...

I would be most grateful for a written confirmation of the outcome of the appeal I sent to Bromley. Stating that the appeal was received, considered and what the official outcome is.

Further to this, if the appeal has in fact been accepted, I would be curious to know what Bromley are doing regarding the signage for the said CPZ, which I sent detailed concerns about.

Remember that parking ticket in Bromley (Nov 2013)?

Well, some 9 months after sending my appeal in for the second time (after it was rejected the first time) I have heard............. Nothing!

So while they are quick to write to you and say pay, or we reject your appeal about our piss poor CPZ signs, they seem to clam up a bit when it comes to saying that maybe you were right after all.

This kind of thing irritates the hell out of me. They have my email address from the appeal, so not even a postage stamp is needed. But NO, they can't even have the decency to get back to me to say, not to worry about paying up. Maybe this is in the hope that I will just cave in and pay up. Alas this is NOT the case.

So today I have sent them a message via their PCN appeal page, which reads as follows.

I received this notice back in November 2013, and appealed, this was rejected.
After receiving the notice to keeper I appealed again, with the same appeal, but more details and photos.
Since this time I have not heard a word back from yourselves.
I would be grateful if you could advise me formally of what decision was made on this PCN, and the grounds upon which the decision was reached.
Many thanks
Michael Snasdell

Having heard back from a number of readers suffering a similar fate to me with regards to bogus tickets based on Bromley's lack of interesting in properly signing their imposed CPZ, I am hoping that a few have managed to make your point also, and not have to pay.

In the meantime, I await a written (email or posted) confirmation from someone at Bromley telling me the outcome and the reasoning for it. I might be waiting a while......

Parking tickets. My feelings on them.

A while back, Nov if I remember correctly, I was issued with a PCN (parking ticket) from Bromley's parking enforcement people, for apparently parking in a clearly signed CPZ (controlled parking zone). I appealed against this on the basis that I felt the signage was so poor that it was not enforceable, as I had not been correctly and adequately made aware of the restrictions of the area I was parking in.
This argument was backed up with photographic and video evidence from myself. And also further supported by  the contradictions of the letter rejecting my appeal, and the actual signs which exist.

The appeal was rejected on the grounds that they felt that the area was sufficiently signed, and I was informed of locations of these signs.... which DON'T exist.

So as the argument has gone on, I started to question the validity and point of my appeal. Was I just doing this because I didn't want to pay.

Well, all my questions were answered this morning when I received a letter from TfL advising me of a parking penalty on the A205. On checking the details, and thinking for a moment, I did indeed stop there, and realised in a true 'DOH' moment, that I had been out of routine. I would usually stop there briefly on the way to physio after 10am, but on this occasion I was going to an earlier appointment, and it was pre 10am... Silly error!
I drove past just now to check the bay was indeed 10-4, and it was, so I went straight online and paid the fine. Which I should point out is the same price as Bromley's demand.

So my relaxed attitude, and acceptance of wrong doing of this TfL PCN clears up the doubt. I have no issue whatsoever paying a legitimate PCN when it is signed but I have still been stupid, however when a council is too tight, and too arrogant to accept that they don't have correct signage, and just throw their weight about with hefty fines, I take offence, and WILL object!

Me vs Bromley Parking, part two

Given that my appeal to Bromley council regarding my parking ticket was rejected on the basis that there IS adequate signage for their CPZ in Bromley Town Centre, I have finally, some 2 months later received the 'Notice to Keeper' which entitles me to officially challenge the ticket and their decision.

So here is the letter I am about to submit to Bromley, to again try and make my point.
I am somewhat entertained that in the same week that I decided to make the formal challenge, that a story would appear on the BBC website, stating that some councils, inc Bromley appear to be setting targets, therefore acting illegally with regards to parking enforcement notices issued.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25865055

So, here is the letter which will be completed and sent off via email, the appeals website, and of course in paper form too. I will in the meantime be speaking to other media outlets to highlight the behaviour of Bromley Parking, and in an effort to get the area re-signed in a more open and fair manner.

Dear Sir / Madam
I am writing to you in relation to parking ticket #******** issued on *********.
I have contacted you on a previous occasion relating to this matter, and already pointed out by email, and open letter, the flaws regarding the signage of the suppose Bromley CPZ.
I shall again make my point, in the hope that it is better understood, taking your original response into consideration.
I approached Bromley town centre from Bromley Hill, coming in from Downham. To be precise, up Bromley Hill, onto London Road, left onto Tweedy Road, along Kentish Way, right onto Masons Hill, straight on onto High St, and right onto Elmfield Road. At no point along this trip was any form of CPZ sign seen. On parking and walking the route in the opposite direction, I finally found a sign. Just after the bus stop on Masons Hill. Please see the attached image from Google Maps of the sign, turned sideways, tiny in size, and ridiculous to believe that Bromley Parking consider this 'visible' and 'adequate' to notify drivers entering the area that it is indeed a CPZ.

Furthermore, I should add that on standing in as near as I could to a driving position in the road, when a bus is at the bus stop, or just pulling away, the sign is completely obscured.
From my understanding of the requirements to establish a legitimate and lawful CPZ, one of the requirements is for the signage to be clear and visible, maybe even adequate. Given that the distance travelled from entering the borough of Bromley, to the point of the ticket being issues is some 2 miles, and that the area apparently covered by the CPZ is just after an area of slower moving traffic, with traffic lights, and open roads with many opportunities for better signs to be erected, I am left only with the belief that the sign has been carefully placed to ensure there IS indeed a sign, but it is of absolutely no use to motorists entering the area. There is no other logical explanation as to why a sign of such importance would be put in such a hard to see place. I should also point out that after turning from Kentish Way to Masons Hill, the number of pedestrians and hazards for motorists increases astronomically, so concentrating to hunt out a hidden sign is rather dangerous from this point on.
Unfortunately on reading recent articles such as this one on the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25865055 , I am led to the only logical conclusion, and that is that this is an attempt to gain as much revenue from parking enforcement as possible, while skirting what Bromley believe to be just within the legal requirements of a CPZ.
Therefore, on this occasion I completely reject the argument that Bromley make,  that there are 'a number of signs from London Road, all the way into Elmfield Road' where the ticket was issued. I can honestly state that I observed NO clearly visible signs on my way to the point of parking. And upon finding a single yellow line with no hours of enforcement close by, I parked in good faith believing I was entitled to do so. Obviously now I know the centre of Bromley is a CPZ I would not do this again, and would choose to park in one of the many VERY well signed pay on exit car parks.
It seems that Bromley are happy to point people in the right direction of a pay to use car park, but not so keen to warn people that yellow lines fall under a badly signed CPZ. Seemingly a win win situation for Bromley.
At this time, I feel I am well within my rights to appeal this ticket, and the decision made by Bromley the first time I appealed, on the following grounds.
CPZ is not adequately signed.
Appeal decision states signs are in a place where they are not.
I look forwards to hearing back from yourselves on this matter in the near future.
Please note, as before, this letter will be shared openly on my blog, as well as Twitter, as will any reply received unless explicitly requested otherwise.
Regards
Michael Snasdell

An open letter to Bromley Parking / LBB

Before I get into the nitty gritty of the whole matter I just want to make something perfectly clear.
I have NO issue with correctly signed and enforced parking restrictions and the subsequent penalties incurred for ignoring or flaunting the parking regulations. During my 20+ years of driving, if I have made the decision to park in the face of the restrictions, I have always sucked it up and paid the fine.

However, I refuse to be tricked, cheated or lied to by an authority who behaves in the way Bromley Council have with their apparent CPZ (Controlled Parking Zone) in Bromley Town Centre.

Visiting last weekend for a quick nip to a local shop I found a yellow line on one of the back streets, checked around for any enforcement signs to see what the restricted hours were, found none within a 'reasonable' distance of the spot, so decided it was OK to park there. Before I go on, YES I know a yellow line means there are parking restrictions of certain hours, but with no enforcement signs, was left assuming weekend, like a lot of other places, were OK.

On returning to my car a little while later (10 mins or so) I was greeted by the sight of a parking enforcement officer taking a picture of my car, and starting to walk away (ticket already on the car). Quickly following her and getting her attention I politely enquired what offence the ticket had been issued for. Her first reaction was to seem a little uncertain as to why I was being so friendly about it. I said I had no issue with her doing her job, but just wanted to enquire where the enforcement signs were, and what the operational hours of the lines in fact were. She very politely replied and told me that 'this is a CPZ because its a very busy area' I asked where the signs were placed in the road I was parked in, she then explained that the signs were in fact as you enter the borough of Bromley (my entry point was approx 3/4 miles from where I parked).
I thanked her for her time and drove home.

On the way home I decided to take a look for the signs that I had missed on the way into Bromley, but was unable to find anything. So today, a week later, I decided to video my trip into Bromley, back to the space I was originally  parked in, and see if I would notice any of these CPZ notifications on the way in.

I should also add that I appealed against the ticket this week, and yesterday received a reply saying they would NOT be cancelling the ticket as they feel there is adequate signage warning of the CPZ, as I had explained my journey into Bromley, they were kind enough even to state the following....'The Controlled Parking Zone signage will be at all entrances to the zone, including London Road.

Taking the information supplied to me by Bromley Parking themselves, I checked carefully as Bromley Hill turned into London Road, and all the way along it until reaching Tweedy Road, which is the route to the town centre.. I can say with 100% confidence that there are NO signs relating to a CPZ along that stretch of London Road. There are advanced traffic warning signs, directions to the car parks, and other various town centre related information signs, but NOTHING about the CPZ.
So first things first Bromley, be sure of something before you try and use it to prove your point.

My recorded journey continued right along Tweedy Road, down into Kentish Way, still nothing other than directions to car parks, most of which are operated by Bromley Parking, so of course they are keen to highlight sources of revenue, and maybe cloak other avenues of revenue like not telling people about the CPZ and the subsequent ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY POUND fine.
Continuing along the journey, along the A21 Kentish Way until the junction with the B228 Masons Hill, so I turned into Masons Hill using the right hand of 2 lanes, and joining the road still in the outside of 2 lanes. Travelling down the hill, just starting to pass a bus stop which has a bus waiting at it, I get stopped in traffic with the bus to my left. The lights ahead at the junction of Westmoreland Road change and I prepare to move off. Suddenly as the bus to my left moves forward and I reach just before the junction of Cromwell Ave, and pass the bus stop, to my amazement there IS a CPZ sign after all. But just the one.

I'm sure you want to see this sign that I have tried to describe to you, so here it is. A few shots I managed to grab after parking up, not the same conditions I had been driving in today or indeed on the day in question, but it will allow me to highlight my issue with it I'm sure.

Using the second image as an example, in traffic, with a number of buses stopping and moving away from the bus stop, or even buses or large vehicles queuing in the left lane, which is a  pretty frequent occurrence due to the traffic lights at Westmoreland Road, it is ENTIRELY possible to completely obscure this one, single, individual CPZ notification. If this were one of a few, had been placed at the traffic lights turning into Masons Hill from Tweedy Road, or if there were more signs as you continue into High St from Masons Hill... Heck if there was even one at the entrance to Elmfield Road where I was parked, I would whole heartidly accept I was in the wrong and had failed to spot signs which were obvious to road users, as the general guidelines of CPZ recommends. But that's not the case.

Instead, Bromley have erected a single, vague, easy to miss, easy to be obscured, hard to tell where it relates to, sign which is about 18" high, on a lamppost by a bus stop, in an area of extremely busy traffic and pedestrian flow, where your attention and concentration would be better spent on the road.

So this is my point to you Bromley. I love visiting Bromley for many activities including shopping, dining, visiting friends, and have no issue paying to park the car parks you provide. It is refreshing to see a council provide quite so much parking for a town centre, although I appreciate some of it is privately managed. However, my point is, as much as I support the penalisation of stupid and selfish parking, while I think paying a fine received in good faith for one of the above acts is justified.... I feel on this occasion you are in the wrong. You have almost purposely been vague about the operational hours of single yellow lines, failed to put up what most people would consider adequate signage to inform users of your imposed CPZ. And then if that was not bad enough, you insult me by trying to tell me there are signs entering the borough which justify the fine you have issued... Where there are quite clearly NOT !
I told you in good faith what route I entered the borough and town centre by, and you have lied in your response, in writing.
I am also curious regarding the line of 'you were allowed to park to load or unload' Where is the sign that informs me THIS act is permitted? Once again, the sheer lack of signage in this location leads to even more confusion

OK, so I have gone on for long enough on this matter, so I shall sum up what the point of all this is.

My points are as follows.

1/ Your CPZ is NOT signed in a sensible and fair manner, in fact it is barely signed at all, which has no doubt led to many unfair and borderline unjustified parking fines being issued.
2/ Your letter rejecting my appeal for the fine to be cancelled is misleading, inaccurate, and offends me that you try and give me information to justify your actions. Only for me to find it not to be true.,
3/ A single sign may 'just about' tick the box for your legal obligations to advise motorists that they are entering a CPZ, but like any road sign, if it can easily be obscured, it can be deemed inadequate, any by some might even be seen as an attempt to flaunt the regulations in your favour.
4/ Finally, your appeal rejection letter notifies me that your decision is final and that I must now wait for the Notice to Owner before I can formally challenge this penalty notice, which as we all know is the line that all authorities love as it clearly really reads 'last chance for a discount, before it goes up to £130'

I shall return to Bromley tomorrow and get much clearer pictures to represent my point when I formally challenge this ticket. And for this I shall request the assistance of someone to take professional standard images, suitable for proper representation. If the findings are in my favour at the representation, I will then seek to recover costs of travelling to Bromley on two occasions, parking costs, and any charge made for the images and video taken.

A letter reflecting the comments in this blog will be sent to LBB by recorded delivery on Monday, and the signature stating the letter is received will be considered that my notice to yourselves, and intention to recover costs, has been received and understood.

I complain and moan about a lot of things in life that are irritating, annoying and even upsetting, but this is one of THE most anger provoking things I have written about in a long time.
Out of the countless signs pointing people to car parks and other things, you put up ONE to just scrape by the regulation.

Not impressed Bromley... NOT impressed.

Please see below the formal letter from Bromley stating their reasons for not cancelling the ticket,